Fair Starting Level

You're right about the human nature. There are plaenty of times when I have something planned and players statements stop me from carrying them out, BUT that doesn't change the overall story. If The dragon orb falling into the hands of the red general is going to cause the rise of the dragons it will happen whether the party gives him the orb is session 32 or he takes the orb in session 45. Small paths might open and close but your intuition will not change the overall goal.

...

Yet I think you are confused. If your character acted on his suspicions of the the white wizard, it wouldn't change whether he's evil or not. It might change the manifestation of his evil but he would still be who he is. You are paranoid if you think entire campaigns change because you figure out the bad guy's scheme, that's part of the Roleplaying Experience.

The issue arises when you have plans and ideas but instead of roleplaying these ideas through your character you talk about it outside of game days later. If Charles deduces that the people offerng to ferry the PCs to a remote island are shady pirates but Chucky the Stout(Charles' evil doll construct) roleplays kicking people on the docks or sitting in the corner avoiding the other PCs Charles can't get credit for good roleplaying or deductive reasoning. There was no roleplaying actually being done.

I feel like commenting on this conspiracy theory, but it looks like its settled.

So.... any more ideas on that starting level?

I've been thinking of the implementation of something like Kharma Points. Acts that progress the story, acts of exceptional roleplaying, and situations where a player stayed in character even when it would prove detrimental to his wellbeing would be wortha set amount of points. When a character dies his points are tallied and the starting level will be solely based on how his/her points rate on the Kharma Chart.

I think it might snuff out some of peoples fears of unfair treatment and show players exactly what their being judged on.

Thoughts...?

I completely disagree with the "average level of the players minus 1 or 2".

Let's say a player is at level 3, and the average level of the party is 7. This player then comes back at level 5 or 6? If his previous level wasn't even this high, why should he have the benefit of this? What if there is player who is only level 4... Should the person that died start at a higher level than him? I don't believe so. He hasn't earned the higher level, but is getting it by default. What will stop players from sacrificing themselves to gain a higher level instead of simply role playing and working towards a higher level?

I personally believe that levels are earned, not given.

If the consensus is that there should be some type of average minus a certain number, than I propose this... If the average level of the party is 5 or below, the player automatically begins at level 2, providing a background has been written or part of it spoken to the DM/GM if in the middle of game play.

If the average level of the party is 6 or above, than an average number can be considered. I still personally believe that it should be based on the PLAYERS level alone... NOT the average of other players. However, if other players levels are still to be considered, than I believe we should say a "dead" persons new character can not start off at a level higher than the level of the lowest character in the party.

I would even go as far as to say that the new character's level should be an average of their level and the lowest level of the party minus 1 or 2.

For instance: Bob is level 4 when he dies. The lowest level of the party is Rico who is level 5. 4 + 5 = 9 divided by 2 is 4.5. 4.5 - 2 = 2.5. Rounding down at all times. The player would start at level 2.

Or: Bob is level 4. Rico is level 7. 4 + 7 = 11. 11 / 2 = 5.5. 5.5 - 2 = 3.5. Bob's new level is 3.

I just cannot come to terms with giving a person a higher level after death than they had before and/or them starting at a level higher than someone else in the game.

This is the reason for this thread. In older campaigns it was decided that average level of the paerty -1 was the rule of the day and what you feared was done multiple times. Players not satisfied by their prograssion allowed themselves to die in order to comeback as a more powerful character.

What doe you think of the Kharma System?

I personally like the Karma System.... However, I see too many complaints and crying about it in the end.

While your goal would be to encourage more role playing and creative thinking, in the end, you would get people who say that they should have more points.... Or they were role playing in their head and you didn't give them points for it. Or So-in-So doesn't deserve that many points, the DM/GM is favoring players.

I just think, in this group, it would be nothing but trouble.

Maybe they're right when they say great minds think alike...

However I'm trying to make it a group descision and not just the GMs being dictators.

In a group, especially this size, you are not going to get everyone to agree on anything... That is the whole point of a DM/GM. Master. In charge. Decision Maker.

Lyra: I see your point and agree. If the party is 10+ the new toon should not be 8th. 4-5 sound good, unless if his old char was 3rd.


Grom: Check out the 1st edition Oriental Adventures. It has a cool concept called honor points and the FAIr way to distribute them. One side note is the points can be used towards the characters next life. You can soop up attributes or HP. Maybe we say everyone starts at 1st and they use points to hook the toon up.

Ohh so you want ot start with magic and a great strength and sacrific your levels. Now you have a cool sword and high str, but you are only 4th wile the party is 11. This was a choice you made, no one an CRY.

ChaZwireZ wrote: Check out the 1st edition Oriental Adventures. It has a cool concept called honor points and the FAIr way to distribute them. One side note is the points can be used towards the characters next life. You can soop up attributes or HP. Maybe we say everyone starts at 1st and they use points to hook the toon up.

A point system... sounds interesting, tell me more or point me in the right direction.

POINT-->

Naa, Let see what I can do. The book is on line and will find a link or I can search all of my archives for the book.

A point system is what I'm aiming for. Are there any more opinions on the matter?

Thumbs up!

So, I have been trolling some forums and found the below answers maybe these can help.


The book included an honor system, in which "honor points" are lost when a character fails to behave in a correct fashion or uphold the family name; eventually the character sheet is simply thrown away, if such behavior continues. Personal honor is also reflected in the honor a character's family.

--

this site appears to combine the two- with "The following actions are considered honorable/dishonorable for this alignment"

http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html

Some are a bit out of player control (accused of a crime?) but may reflect the idea that at least some of alignment is how you are perceived.

--

L5R is a completely different system than D&D. The SRD's honor system was made to work with D&D mechanics, so it is prolly what you should go with.

The problem with the SRD version is that the starting honor score is based on the character's alignment. So if I'm going to eliminate alignment, I'll have to figure out something else to base it on.

Going through the SRD, it looks like what I really want is a combination of honor http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/honor.htm and reputation http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/reputation.htm, sans alignment. That's gonna take some fiddling, though, and I'll probably have to do a lot more work on the setting itself before I'm ready to hash it all out. Oh well, at least I have someplace to start now.

--

Satyr's Serpents&Sewers http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102346 has an honor system in place of alignment. You might want to take a look there.

a couple of things i would like to say...

First, I like the whole point system. By earning points through role playing, it gives more of the opportunity for the player to control their fate, even past the afterlife. I guess that is what is called karma, but at least they would have some control on how their next character could be. Secondly, I don't like the fact that new characters starting at 1 or 2 unless that is the current average of the party because then what it comes time to fight a dragon ::, that person tends to get swallowed in one shot. At least having them near the party's level would allow them a chance not to be one-shot.

Now to defend my role playing. I dunno what's wrong with me in terms of planning, but it usually takes some time for a good plan to come up. When I do have a plan, either another player will come out and start doing what I had planned, or they will tell me what I should do, which then kills the fact that I thought up myself. Also, when I'm on the spot, it becomes even harder to come up with a good plan (at least for me anyway). Another issue about me is that I like to have the full attention of the DM, so when they come to me, I start to talk. But when another player interrupts and the DM looks like they paying attention to them, it tends to mess up my train of thought so I'll go mess up on what I was saying. During those nice critical prayers, that could have a serious implication on the game so...

Players will start at a virtual level of 1, period. However they are not doomed to instant doom. Each PC that has played at least one game should have earned a couple of Character Points and those points could now be used to develop the New PC. Character Points are awarded by the GM or GMs if the situation suits. Character Points will be awarded every session but a player is not guaranteed to earn any CPTs. CPTs are points awarded seperately from experience and are heavily influenced by a character's background and alignment. Characters Points are rewarded for players playing their role, and in character.

Character Points can be used to purchase starting levels, ability score increases, starting items and starting treasure.

We take for granted the roots of these games that we play. The role of adventurer is a special status achieved by an elite group. The job is not for everyone or everyone would do it. The idea that characters of the same level as the party are miraculously around when the party needs to replenish their ranks is bad comedy. Being higher level is a privilege that should be earned. 'That acheived too lightly is esteemed too low...'. That said, I do recognize that starting at low levels in any campaign especially a campaign that sometimes devolves into long hack and slash sessions. Yet ' all men are not created equal'. A player that puts great effort into roleplaying should not have to start at the same level as the toon that put no effort into participating in the game. Thus the Character Points System.

Now to defend my role playing. I dunno what's wrong with me in terms of planning, but it usually takes some time for a good plan to come up. When I do have a plan, either another player will come out and start doing what I had planned, or they will tell me what I should do, which then kills the fact that I thought up myself. Also, when I'm on the spot, it becomes even harder to come up with a good plan (at least for me anyway). Another issue about me is that I like to have the full attention of the DM, so when they come to me, I start to talk. But when another player interrupts and the DM looks like they paying attention to them, it tends to mess up my train of thought so I'll go mess up on what I was saying. During those nice critical prayers, that could have a serious implication on the game so...

Of those of us that have been playing consistantly together since the days of Land of the Four(Lycant, Shoo, Legendary,etc..) YOU are the most experienced. You should be showing us how its done. Surely, as a writer you understand pacing? When an event is unfolding two approaches are taken: There is the standard pace when each player is asked at length "what are you doing?' and there is the faster event when things are described and players are expected to react as things are quickly unfolding. Everyone reacts differently. Instead of dwelling on others doing what you were hoping to do be proactive(not the zit cream) and speak your mind. If your method of getting the GM's attention isn't working try a different tact. Raise your hand, or ask others to allow you to speak uninterupted.

In the end its a game those that want to play need to PLAY.

You quoted yourself. Its like being in a band and wearing you own shirt...damb...ha ha. In your defense I am guessing you messed up and had no intention to quote at all....ha ha ha.

Not to sound ShaDy but I feel that the CTS's should remain in the hands of the PC. Keep them totals away from players. We have no need in dwelling what out next character should be...Thats just wrong.

My toon sir fiddle stix has earned enough points that I can start 2 level lower that I currently am but with a whole slew of upgrades...Cheese

I question your vision sometimes and call for a full inquirey into your shinanagins. I quoted Lycant, first of all. Second CPT totals will be solely known by the GMs( you wrote PCs, jerk!). This is all for the sake of running a good game... Thanks for listening!

Ha HA. I woke up from a nice nap and checked the forums..see what sleep does to you.

With the rekindling of the fire that is Land of the Four, a mid-level campaign, I've decided that players will start at level 5. Character Points are still being tallied and can be used on new characters. Backgrounds are a requirement. As long as a character lacks a background he will receive half experience and NO CPTs. All new characters start with a masterwork weapon or armor and 1 potion of Extra Healing.

Recap:

• Starting Level(LotF: Revisited): Level 5(single class), Level 3/3(dual-class), and Level 2/2/1(tri-Max Legendary-class)

• Character Points can be used when applicable

• Players start with a Masterwork quality weapon or armor(or a Level 1 scroll of the spellcaster's choice)

• Players start with a Potion of Extra Healing(3d8+4 in one dose or three doses of 1d8)

Note: These rules only apply as long as the party is at mid-level and is subject to change.

The Great Gromwold wrote:Level 2/2/1(tri-Max Legendary-class)

THAT'S RIGHT!

We should all play an adventure when everyone is a tri-class. Imagine all the crap we will need to do for a level....ahhh.

I so wouldn't have a problem with that...

Now I know I haven't been in this past week (due to financial woes). With the return to Lot4, did everyone start with new characters or did they come back as they were (except the new people who weren't there before, of course)? And what system is being used? Lot4 has been through it all, lol.